Wow Quest Never Again Fel Spear

Greetings amazing community!

Since the offset of Turtle WoW our mission has e'er been to provide a unique Vanilla feel by either picking up where Blizzard left off or, in this case, altering or enhancing certain existing aspects of the game to uphold electric current standards.

Since Turtle's earliest days we've seen and heard players suggest form changes, all with differing opinions and viewpoints, each and every of these has been taken into account and we all wish to thank you for your passion and insights.

From the bottom of our hearts, give thanks you for your patience and the feedback you've been giving since the starting time iteration of the changelog. We're as excited equally you are for the release, but there are notwithstanding a few bugs that need ironing out, and fifty-fifty though its close to being finished the release date is not fully articulate nonetheless.

We wanted you to run into the entire picture of this batch of class changes, so we've compiled the terminal list of additions, changes and tweaks coming with Patch 1.16.1. Talent estimator itself will be updated afterwards on.

Thank you again for your patience.

We want to welcome all of yous to discuss & give effective feedback on any changes fabricated in the last iteration of the listing.

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The vanilla design of the Druid is infamous for being pretty unfinished. Its mechanics weren't fully realized until well into the first expansion. Because of this, there'south a lot of freedom on how to ameliorate on the class while sticking with the "vanilla feeling." That said, just attempting to recreate the druid of later expansions is a cop-out, but we feel incorporating some iconic and fan-favorite abilities would exist a expert idea.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Hook at present also deals 100% of weapon impairment in improver to its current harm.
Note: This value is calculated on the invisible Claw weapon druid forms get when shapeshifting and does not correspond with your normal weapon.

Frenzied Regeneration now besides heals for 1% of your Stamina.

Insect Swarm is now a Balance spell and available to all Druids starting at level xx.

Faerie Fire (Feral) is at present bachelor to all Druids starting at level 30.

New Abilities

Owlkin Frenzy
Learned at Level 60 | Requires Moonkin Form | Passive |
Attacks done to you while in Moonkin Form have a 15% hazard to cause you to go into a Frenzy, causing you to be immune to pushback while casting Residual spells. Lasts 10 sec.

Barbarous Bite
Learned at Level 54 | Requires Conduct Form | 30 Rage | 6 Second Cooldown
Savagely bites the target, dealing normal damage plus 61.

Talent Changes

Residual

Natural Weapons | Now three Ranks (down from v)
Increases the impairment you deal with physical in all forms by 4/7/10% and increases your chance to hit with melee attacks and spells past one/2/3%.

Nature'due south Grace
All spell criticals grace yous with a approval of nature, reducing the casting fourth dimension and global cooldown of your next spell past 0.5 sec.

Moonkin Form
Transforms the Druid into Moonkin Grade. While in this form the armor contribution from items is increased by 360%, the Mana cost of your Moonfire, Starfire, and Wrath spells reduced by 20%, and all party members within 30 yards have their spell critical run a risk increased by 3%. The Moonkin tin only bandage Balance spells, Innervate, and Remove Curse while shapeshifted.

Omen of Clarity
Imbues the Druid with natural energy. Each of the Druid'due south melee attacks and directly damage spell casts take a chance of causing the caster to enter a Clearcasting land. The Clearcasting state reduces the Mana, Rage or Energy cost of your side by side damage or healing spell or offensive ability by 100%. Lasts 10 min.

Feral

Fundamental Fury and Blood Frenzy take had their existing effects combined into Key Fury: Gives you a 50/100% gamble to gain an additional 5 Rage anytime you become a critical strike while in Deport and Dire Bear Form and your critical strikes from Cat Form abilities that add combo points accept a 50/100% gamble to add an additional combo point.

Reduced the ranks of Thick Hide from v ranks to iii ranks.
Increases your Armor contribution from items by iv/vii/10%.

Feral Instinct reduced from 5 ranks to 3 ranks.
İncreases threat acquired in Deport Course and Dire Conduct Form past 5/10/15% and reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while PRowling.

New Talent: Claret Frenzy (Row iv) | ii Ranks
Increases the elapsing of Tiger's Fury past 3/six seconds and your Enrage now as well instantly restores 5/10 rage. In addition, increases attack speed by 6/12% when either effect is active.

New Talent: Berserk (Row 5) | vi Minute Cooldown
Removes all Fear effects and increases your energy regeneration rate by 100% while in True cat class, and increases your total wellness by xx% while in Bear form. After the effect ends, the health is lost. Effect lasts twenty seconds.

Restoration

Swiftmend has moved from a Row 7 to a Row three talent, replacing Insect Swarm.

Tranquil Spirit is no longer a prerequisite for the Row seven major talent.

Improved Rejuvenation is at present a prerequisite talent for Improved Regrowth.

Improved Enrage has been removed from the Restoration tree and has been integrated into the new talent Blood Frenzy.

Subtlety at present also reduces threat generated from Balance spells.
Reduces the threat generated by your Healing and Balance spells past 4/viii/12/16/twenty%.

New Talent: Tree of Life Form (Row 7)
Shapeshift into the Tree of Life. While in this course yous increase healing received by 15% of your total Spirit for all party members within thirty yards, your movement speed is reduced past 20%, and you lot tin can only bandage Swiftmend, Innervate, Nature's Swiftness, Rebirth, Barkskin, poison removing and healing over time spells, just the mana cost of these spells is reduced by twenty%.

The human action of shapeshifting frees the pulley of Polymorph and Movement Impairing effects.

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Hunter's main trouble in vanilla comes down to two issues: DPS does not scale well with their gear and then they tend to not be competitive in endgame stages, and their pets are particularly frail in a raid setting, often leading to them non being used. Called-for Crusade stock-still these problems at the same fourth dimension with pet scaling, Impale Command, and Steady Shot abilities - leading them condign massively overpowered. Fugitive this while likewise addressing their vanilla bug can be washed past not giving them all three at once.

New Abilities

Trueshot
A precise shot with a ranged weapon that strikes the target for X additional harm. (Cooldown of this ability is equal to the assault speed of your ranged weapon.)
Rank 1: 10 Boosted Damage, fifteen Mana, Learned at Level 36
Rank 2: 20 Boosted Damage, 40 Mana, Learned at Level 42
Rank 3: 30 Additional Impairment, 60 Mana, Learned at Level 48
Rank 4: twoscore Additional Harm, 85 Mana, Learned at Level 54
Rank five: 50 Additional Impairment, 110 Mana, Learned at Level lx

Aspect of the Wolf
Learned at Level 30 | Toggled | 185 Mana Cost |
The hunter takes on the aspects of a wolf, increasing melee attack power past 155 and disabling the employ of ranged attacks. Just i Aspect tin be active at a time.

Abstention
Learned at Level l | Pet Passive |
Reduces the damage your pet takes from area of outcome attacks by an additional 50%.

Talent Changes

Beast Mastery

Improved Optics of the Beast
Increases the duration of Eyes of the Beast by thirty/60 seconds. While channeling this power your tamed pet deals 5/10% additional damage and increases its focus generation by 10/20%.

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There isn't much to improve on for the Fire and Frost mage specs in vanilla - they are tightly designed and synergize well with other mages very well. That said, Arcane falls far backside despite having an opportunity to fill up its own niche, and the possibility of encouraging the Elemental Mage playstyle.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Arcane Missiles: Spell Power scaling coefficient has been increased: (0.24 -> 0.286)

Talent Changes:

Arcane

Improved Arcane Explosion > Arcane Affect
Increases the disquisitional strike chance of your Cabalistic Explosion and Arcane Missiles spell's past an additional 2/4/6%.

New Talent: Arcane Potency (Row 4)
Increases the disquisitional strike harm bonus of your Arcane spells by 18/36/fifty%. Requires Arcane Mind every bit a prerequisite talent.

New Talent: Luminescence Aura (Row v)
Gives Mana regeneration to political party members equal to 15% of the Mage's mana regeneration within 30 yards. Lasts 30 minutes. Requires Arcane Potency as a prerequisite talent.

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Let'southward be frank - the only good thing a paladin can exercise in vanilla is heal. Certain, with the correct setup you lot can do decent tanking or decent dps, but it still doesn't all quite come up together. A lot of the potential and uniqueness to the class has ever attracted people to it, but that was progressively lost over time in retail mail service-vanilla. Nosotros believe there is a lot of opportunity to assist the Paladin perform more than just healing adequately without making them likewise powerful or "warrior-light."

Changes to Baseline Spells

Induction is no longer a talent and is now available to all Paladins starting at level 20, its scaling coefficient has been increased (0.042 -> 0.119) and mana cost for all ranks has been reduced. Example: Rank 5 Mana Cost 565 -> 505

Judgement of Righteousness scaling coefficient has been increased: (0.5 -> 0.728)

Retribution Aura scaling coefficient has been added: (0.033)

Holy Strike cooldown increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds.

New Abilities

Crusader Strike
A strike that causes X damage and increases the holy damage taken by the target by up to Y per Crusader Strike. Can be applied upwardly to five times. Lasts thirty seconds.
Rank ane: 25 Mana, 12 Damage, 6 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank ii: xl Mana, 27 Impairment, 10 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 3: 55 Mana, 46 Damage, 15 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank iv: seventy Mana, 69 Damage, 22 Bonus Holy damage per stack
Rank 5: 90 Mana, 103 Damage, 30 Bonus Holy harm per stack
Crusader Strike is not able to proc seals, damage-based procs, or refresh judgements.

Talent Changes

Holy

Healing Light (Row 3)
Increases the amount healed past your Holy Light, Wink of Light, and the effectiveness Holy Shock spells by 4/8/12%.

Holy Shock | Rework: (Values are for Rank 3):
Cooldown reduced from thirty seconds to 20 seconds.
Mana cost increased from 325 to 485.
Healing Increased from 365 to 628.
Damage increased from 365 to 496.

Lasting Judgements (Row 5) removed.

Protection

Redoubt and at present has a 2/4/half dozen/8/10% chance to activate off of whatsoever direct attack instead of existence the victim of a critical strike.

Precision. Increases your take a chance to striking with melee weapons and spells past 1/2/3%.

Approval of Kings has been moved from the Row 3] of the Protection talent tree to the Row 3 of the Retribution talent tree.

Shield Specialization. Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by ten/20/30% and has a 33/66/100% chance to restore 1% mana when a cake occurs. This upshot cannot occur more once every second.

Improved Induction Aura has been moved from the Row four of the Protection talent tree to the Row 5 of the Holy talent tree.

New Talent: Improved Seal of Justice (Row 4). Increases the chance your Seal of Justice will stun the opponent by 22/33/67% and your Judgement of Justice has a 33/66/100% chance to taunt your target to attack you, simply has no effect if the target is already attacking you.

Blessing of Sanctuary has been moved from Row v to Row 3 in the Protection tree.

Holy Shield moved from Row 7 to Row five.

New Talent: Ardent Defender (Row vii). When you lot have less than 35% health, all damage taken is reduced by 25%.

Retribution

Seal of Control moved from Row 3 to Row 5.
Sanctity Aura has been moved from the Row 5 of the Retribution talent tree to the Row 3 of the Holy talent tree.
Greater Blessing of Kings' Mana Cost has been adjusted: (150 Mana -> 15% Base Mana)

New Talent: Sanctified Control (Row 5). Gives your Seal of Command a 45/90% run a risk to resist dispel furnishings and your Judgement of Command will restore mana equal to ten/20% of the base of operations mana cost of the Seal of Command to you and nearby party members. Requires Seal of Command as a prerequisite talent.

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Shadow priests are notorious for beingness good, just also not. Their mana economic system is horrendous and comes with several downsides other dps+caster hybrids don't have to piece of work around. The challenge for Shadow is to heave its utility and mana economy without increasing their ability, as their impairment per second is actually very proficient already.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Holy Burn down initial damage component scaling has been adjusted: (0.75 -> 0.857)

Divine Spirit (Row 5) is now baseline for all Priests starting at level 30.

Lightwell (Row vii) has been made baseline and is available for all Priests starting at level 40.

New Abilities

New Passive: Improved Shadowform. | Learned at Level 60 | Passive
Reduces the Mana cost of your Shadow spells by 15% and allows 15% of your mana regeneration to continue while casting while in Shadowform.

New Ability: Pain Fasten | Learned at Level lx | fifteen Second Cooldown | 265 Mana Cost |
Causes 333 to 377 Shadow impairment instantly, but the damage caused will begin healing itself over 5 seconds after landing. Requires Shadowform.

New Power: Shadowmend | Attained via class quest at Level threescore | 635 Mana Cost | thirty 2nd Cooldown
Heal the friendly target 518 to 615. This spell generates reduced threat. Requires Shadowform.

Talent Changes:

Shadow

Improved Vampiric Touch has been renamed every bit Vampiric Cover: Increases the percent healed past Vampiric Embrace by an additional 5/ten% and your Vampiric Embrace now causes all political party members to too proceeds mana equal to 1/2% of whatever Shadow spell damage you bargain.

Holy

Holy Nova damage component scaling has been adapted: (0.107 -> 0.161)

New Talent: Holy Champion (Row seven)
Allows y'all to choose some other player equally your holy champion, granting you several unique abilities:

Proclaim Champion | 250 Mana Cost | 10 Second Cast | 2 Hr Cooldown
Proclaim the friendly target as your champion for ii hrs. Increases armor by 230, all resistances by x and allows the employ of various Champion spells on that target.
Note: Persists through death and continues its elapsing and cooldown countdowns while offline.
Note: Armor buff does not stack with Scroll of Protection IV

Champion'south Grace | Learned at Level 40 | 250 Mana Cost
Bestow the target Champion with grace, increasing all healing washed by the priest past ten%. Lasts ii hrs.

Champion's Bail | Learned at Level 44 | 250 Mana Cost
Creates a bond betwixt priest and Champion. When the priest takes damage up to 20 will exist taken by the Champion instead. Lasts 10 min.

Empower Champion | Learned at Level fifty | 1100 Mana Cost
Empower the target Champion, increasing all healing and spell damage done by upwards to xx and set on power by thirty. Lasts ii hrs.
Notation: Does not stack furnishings with Greater Arcane Elixir or Juju Power/Elixir of Giants

Champion's Resolve | Learned at Level 58 | 250 Mana Toll | 5 Minute Cooldown
Wards the champion againist Fear. The adjacent Fear effect used againist the target will fail, using up the ward. Lasts ten sec.

Revive Champion | 81% Base Mana Cost | 2 Second Cast
Return the priest's Champion to life with 2500 wellness and 2600 mana.
Annotation: Cannot exist cast in gainsay.

Discipline

New Talent: Cogitating Shields (Row v)
Causes 15% of the damage absorbed by your Power Word: Shield to reflect back at the assaulter. This damage causes no threat. Requires Improved Power Earth: Shield as a prerequisite talent.

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Not a lot to say for Rogues. If anything, Combat existence the just feasible talent spec in PvE all the way to late AQ40/Naxx is unfortunate. Debuff cap limits and some new abilities to add to their toolkit without majorly changing the way the form functions is something we believe Rogue players are looking for.

New Abilities

Detection | 10 Energy | Learned at Level 30 |
Hidden traps will be easier to spot for 5 sec.

Surprise Attack | 30 Energy | 15 2d Cooldown |
A strike that deals 90% weapon damage. This attack cannot be blocked, dodged or parried. Awards one combo point.

Agitating Poisonous substance | Learned at Level sixty |
Coats a weapon with poison that lasts for 30 minutes. Each strike has a twenty% chance of poisoning the enemy which instantly inflicts 67 to 85 Nature damage, and causes additional threat. 115 charges.

Flourish | 25 Energy | Learned at Level 42
Finishing move that increases your chance to parry by an additional 20%. Lasts longer per combo betoken:
1 Point : 3 Seconds
2 Points: 4 Seconds
3 Points: v Seconds
4 Points: 6 Seconds
v Points: 7 Seconds

Talent Changes

Combat

Dagger Specialization (Row 4) and Fist Weapon Specialization (Row v) have been combined into Shut Quarters Combat (Row 4): Increases your chance to go a critical strike with Daggers and Fist Weapons by 1/2/iii/iv/5%.

New Talent: Throwing Weapon Specialization (Row five)
Increases the range of your throwing weapons by 3/6 yards.

Subtlety

Improved Sap (Row 4)
Gives you a 50/100% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.

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Elemental and Enhancement both take struggles in PvE that can be addressed somewhat easily. Restoration is pretty solid in vanilla, simply its talent tree leaves a lot to exist desired - something to proceed in mind for the future.

New Abilities

Calm Elements | Learned at Level 22 | 90 Mana Price |
Calms the target, reducing the range at which it will attack y'all past 10 yards. Only affects Elemental targets level lxx or lower. Lasts 15 sec.

Water Shield | Learned at Level 60 | xv Mana Toll |
The caster is surrounded by three globes of h2o. When a spell, melee or ranged assault hits the caster, 83 mana is restored to the caster. This expends one water world. Only one world will actuate every few seconds. Lasts 10 min. Only one elemental shield can be active on the Shaman at any one time.

Earth Shield | Learned at Level 60 | 300 Mana Cost |
The caster is surrounded with an earthen shield, giving a thirty% risk of ignoring spell pause when damaged and causing attacks to heal the shielded target for 150. This consequence tin can only occur once every few seconds. 3 charges. Lasts 10 min. Only ane elemental shield can exist agile on the Shaman at any one fourth dimension.

Totemic Recall | Learned at Level forty | No Mana Cost |
Returns your totems to the world, giving yous 25% of the mana required to cast each totem destroyed by Totemic Call.

New Shaman Racial Spells
| Caused via Form Quest at Level 40 |

Orc: Feral Spirit | 21% Base Mana Toll | 5 Minute Cooldown |
Summons two Spirit Wolves nether the command of the Shaman for 20 seconds.

Tauren: Spirit Link | 21% Base Mana Cost |10 Minute Cooldown |
Link the spirits of an marry and their iii closest allies within 15 yards together. When linked targets accept damage, 10% is distributed amongst the other linked allies. Lasts 20 seconds.

Troll: Hex | 21% Base Mana Price | v Minute Cooldown |
Transforms the enemy into a frog that cannot cast, and does 66% less damage for upwardly to iv seconds. Only works on Beasts, Humanoids and Critters.

Changes to Baseline Spells

New Rank two of Stormstrike added, learnable at level 60. Differences from Rank 1: Cooldown is 12 seconds as opposed to the 20 seconds of Rank 1. Costs 12% of your base of operations Mana equally opposed to 21% of your base Mana with Rank 1.

Talent Changes

Enhancement

Two-Handed Weapons (Row) and Parry (Row 5) are now baseline for all Shamans and trainable at level 20.

New Talent: Thunderhead (Row 3).
Allows your Lightning Shield to be cast on allies and reduces its mana price by 20%. Requires Improved Lightning shield as a prerequisite talent.

Stormstrike has been moved from Row seven to Row 5.

New Talent: Bloodlust (Row 7)
Increases melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by X0% for a party member within 30 yards. Lasts 15 sec.
Rank one (Talent): 10%
Rank two (Level 60): 15%

New Talent: Spirit Armor (Row 4)
Increases the armor gained from Shields by ten/20/30%.

Toughness and Anticipation accept been combined into one talent: Ancestral Guidance (Row three)
Increases your armor value from items by 2/iv/6/8/10% and chance to contrivance past an additional ane/ii/iii/4/5%.

Elemental

Elemental Focus (Row 3) changed: after landing a disquisitional strike with a Fire, Frost, or Nature harm spell, you enter a Clearcasting country. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next two damage spells by 40%.

Flame Shock initial damage increased and mana cost decreased:
Example: Rank 6
Mana Cost: 450 -> 410
Initial Impairment: 292 -> 309

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PvE is the only area where Warlock has an event - they're boring! A form with as much cool stuff in its toolkit should not have to be limited to only spamming Shadowbolt exclusively. Debuff cap discussion aside, there are definitely ways to expand on the class fantasy of the Warlock in addition to addressing its atypical issue. Something to too take into consideration for the future is that the Warlock talent copse went near untouched through the class of development through Burning Crusade. Besides, similar to the Hunter, the Warlock's demons are also vulnerable in raid settings with large amounts of AoE damage.

Changes to Baseline Spells:

Voidwalker's Torment now deals a very small-scale amount of Shadow harm.
Rank i: 7 to 6
Rank ii: thirteen to fifteen
Rank iii: 18 to 21
Rank 4: 26 to 30
Rank 5: 36 to 40
Rank 6: 43 to 48

New Abilities

New Power: Mana Funnel
Rank 1 (Level 40): | Transfers eighteen mana from the caster to her pet every second.
Rank 2 (Level 50): | Transfers 36 mana from the caster to her pet every second.

New Ability: Demon Portal | Learned via hidden Grimore at Level 60 |
Opens a portal into the Twisting Under that summons a Felguard under the command of the pulley for five min. Once command is lost, the Felguard must be Enslaved to maintain control. Requires the caster and 2 additional party members to complete the ritual. In order to participate, all players must right-click the portal and not movement until the ritual is complete.

Avoidance
Learned at Level fifty | Pet Passive |
Reduces the damage your pet takes from area of upshot attacks by an additional 50%.

Talent Changes

Affliction

Improved Drain Life and Improved Drain Mana have been combined into one talent: Soul Siphon
Increases the Wellness drained by your Drain Life spell past 5/10% and causes 15/30% of the Mana drained by your Drain Mana spell to damage the opponent.

Demonology

Improved Enslave Demon reduced to two ranks (down from 5). Reduces the Assault Speed and Casting Speed penalty of your Enslave Demon spell by x/twenty%, reduces the resist run a risk by ten/20%, and the casting time by .5/1 second.

Soul Link and Health Funnel will at present piece of work with enslaved demons.

Improved Healthstone, Improved Firestone, and Improved Spellstone have all been combined into 1 talent: Primary Conjurer (Row ii). Increases the amount of Wellness restored past your Healthstone by 10/xx% and increases the bonuses and effects of your Firestones and Spellstones by 15/30%.

Inferno cooldown reduced from ane hour to xx minutes and tin now be cast indoors.

Fel Intellect has been reduced from 5 ranks downward to 3 ranks. Increases the maximum Mana of your Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus and Felhound past 5/10/15%.

Fel Stamina has been reduced from 5 ranks downwardly to 3 ranks. Increases the maximum Health of your Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus and Felhound by 5/ten/15%.

Destruction:

Intensity (Row 4). Gives you a 70% chance to resist break acquired by damage while casting or channeling any Destruction fire spell.

Pyroclasm (Row five). Gives your Rain of Fire, Hellfire, Conflagrate, and Soul Fire spells a 25% chance to stun the target for iii sec.

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Warrior in Vanilla is overpowered. Just direct upwardly also powerful for the game. That being said, this just means that whatever alter fabricated to the form must downwards one of 2 things only: either optimize what doesn't work only should for the grade, or improve on suboptimal playstyles to let for more than options for the player. The changes proposed for the coming patch attempt to stick within those guidelines.

Changes to Baseline Spells

Thunderclap tin can now exist used in Defensive Opinion.

New Abilities

New Ability: Arbitrate | 10 Rage | 30 Second Cooldown | Requires Defensive Stance | Acquired via Form Quest at Level 50 |
Run at high speed towards a party member, intercepting the next melee or ranged attack made against them.
Annotation: Shares a cooldown with Intercept.

New Power: Decisive Strike | 15 Rage | ii Second Bandage
Focus an set on equal to Slam (Rank 4) on an opponent. Can be bandage while moving and will not suffer bandage time pushback when taking damage.
Note: Credit to Wall (Video) of Wallcraft for his brilliant rework of Slam.
Annotation: The bandage time of Decisive Strike is reduced by Improved Slam.

New Passive: Die by the Sword| Acquired via Class Quest at Level 30 |
Increases your chance to parry attacks by 20% while under the effect of Retaliation.

Talent Changes

Arms

Improved Thunder Clap (Row two). Reduces the cost of your Thunder Clap ability by 1/2/4 rage points and increases the harm by xl/seventy/100%.

Polearm Specialization (Row 6) has been combined into Axe Specialization (Row v) and renamed Poleaxe Specialization (Row 5).

New Talent: Improved Disciplines (Row 6). Reduces the cooldown of your Retaliation, Recklessness and Shield Wall abilities past 2/4/6 min.

Protection

Improved Shield Block has been reduced from 3 ranks down to 1 rank. Allows your Shield Block ability to cake an additional attack and increases the elapsing past 1 2nd.

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https://talents.turtle-wow.org/

gilberthimerst.blogspot.com

Source: https://forum.turtle-wow.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2197

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